Front Brake caliper removal and installation

[77]

Does anyone have as much trouble as me removing the front caliper on their motard? Does it hit your rim? Or is there some special way of removing the caliper without hitting rim. Just wondered if anyone had modified anything or simply do like I do and remove 2 caliper bolts and slide off (and put electrical tape on rim to prevent damage) and basically force it off or on? I do not know if this problem is specific to the Z400E with 320mm rotor and original caliper + spacer. Any help would be great.

[Wobbly]

Try and separate the pads as much as possible, but yes it's very tight and you can score up your rim if you aren't careful. Getting it back on is harder with brand new brake pads.

If you are concerned, easiest solution is to take off all your disc mounting bolts except one and swing the disc out the way, stick the caliper on and then swing the disc back into position and bolt it back up...

[77]

Thanks very much Neil? I wasn't sure if there was maybe something secret that I could not see. You know home sometimes something can be obvious to everyone else but oneself. :shock:

[Harry525]

I can't get my caliper off unless I take the pads out and then it only just fits the gap. Don't force it - get a bigger hammer!

There would be a lot of thread wear on the tapped holes in the front hub if you were taking the disc off regularly. Make sure you lubricate the disc bolts.

[77]

Funny that you said that because the first time that I removed and reinstalled the caliper I thought about putting never seize or something like that on the threads (since I have always done this when aluminium and heat are concerned) and then thought.....well it is the brake I do not want the bolt falling out. Plus there was nothing on it when I bought it. So I have not been putting anything on the thread when I install it. Do you lubricate the bolts? How about you Neil?

[Flash]

You can always take the wheels out at the same time, that gives you a little more room

[Wobbly]

Personally I didn't change the wheels around all that much for it to be a concern, but when I did I usually just separated the pads and was careful getting the caliper out. A hint is to put a bit of contact on the rim where you are likely to have the caliper contact it so you can stuff around a bit without fear of scratching up your rim.

Or you can just bash and swear at it - I usually found that worked a treat :)

[77]

You can always take the wheels out at the same time, that gives you a little more room

????? - How does taking wheel off give mroe room. The rim is still the same distance from the rotor. Am I misunderstanding what you are saying? Not being a smartass.

[77]

Neil I was just checking out your new bike on the piccy there. Looks good. Thought I would share although I am sure that weveryone knows already. When i got my new rgo sticker I stuck it to a piece of contact and then wrapped it around my fork between triple clamps with another peice of contact. Looks neat and so far the water has not blurred the numbers and stuff. Just thought I would share. i was told this a few months ago by an older dude with a motard at a servo that I got talking too. Also mate did you shorten your sidestand on the DRZ or leave it original?

[77]

So how do you like the Husky? Compared to the DRZ? Anything at all better on the DRZ? :lol2:

[Flash]

Just seems to make it easier for me

[Sibbo]

Pads out, caliper off and easy wheel changes for the YZ. (all of 4 times).

[77]

Pads out, caliper off and easy wheel changes for the YZ. (all of 4 times).

Do you even have 17 inch rims?? :D :lol: :lol:

[Sibbo]

No, thats why it has only been 4 times. 2 uses of muzz's rims.

I believe it is the fastest and most leant over the rims have ever been.....waiting for the love.....

[SMC690]

Make sure you lubricate the disc bolts.

Arrrgh, STOP that's a good way to make them fall out.
Loctite 243 or equivalent thread locking compound (Mid strength) should always be used on disc/hub bolts.
Stay away from lube!

[Sibbo]

Lube?

Dont forget to lube the sides of your tyres, where the tread is. No joking it actually makes it grip better. It is scientifically proven to change the rubber compount to make it wear better and stick more. All the moto GP teams do it, so you should too if you want to go fast......

[SMC690]

LOL.
Sad thing is, some people will read that and believe it!

[Tom]

What? It's not true?

...er

um...

how do you get grease off a tyre?

[Sibbo]

how do you get grease off a tyre?

I use oil :lol:

[Wobbly]

:rofl:

I didn't bother shortening my sidestand for the drz - I crapped on about if for a while before finally simply parking my bike the right way when the ground slopes. It wouldn't be hard, but I'm very lazy :)

As for the husky, its pretty smooth through the drive train, a bit heavier, but the suspension works quite a bit better. DRZ with mods still has it down for fun factor, due to additional bottom end, but I'm waiting to reserve my judgement until my pipe finally turns up in country :roll:

[77]

Make sure you lubricate the disc bolts.

Arrrgh, STOP that's a good way to make them fall out.
Loctite 243 or equivalent thread locking compound (Mid strength) should always be used on disc/hub bolts.
Stay away from lube!

Funny you said that because I wouldn't use loctite on steel bolts in an aluminum spacer that has been tapped out when they are coming off all the time. I just think that the thread would take a beating. But hey if I am wrong somebody please offer their opinion. Spark plugs for example in Aluminium heads I have always put copper coat or an equivalent on them, mind you there is a lot more heat there. SMC625 are you a bike tech? (once again not being a smart ass)

[d_kimo]

copper cote or similar and the shouldnt fall out ...

never had a problem with mine ... just take the pads out and it is super easy

[SMC690]

SMC625 are you a bike tech? (once again not being a smart ass)

I have worked in workshop's right beside tech's pretty much since 1993.
I have built engines, do my own servicing etc. At work I look after tech info, parts & warranty stuff 6 days a week.
Even the spare parts disc bolts I get these days for several brands have the bolts 'pre-smeared' with dried locking compound.
The mid strenght stuff is good, the bolts wont fall out but it only takes a bit of force to crack the bolt to remove them if need be.
The last thing I personally would be using on them is grease or anti sieze compound no matter what material the bolt or the hub.
But that's just me. :)
I couldn't care if you put yoghurt on them really, they your bolts man. :P
(not being a smart ass, just an honest arse)

[anttismo]

SMC625 are you a bike tech? (once again not being a smart ass)

I have worked in workshop's right beside tech's pretty much since 1993.
I have built engines, do my own servicing etc. At work I look after tech info, parts & warranty stuff 6 days a week.....

Wow. Now there's believeable testimony :lol:

OK, so from your extensive experinece of working beside techo's, rebuilding engines and doing your own servicing, can you explain to us why the sky is falling if we use lube on bolts?? Why do they fall out more easily??

[Wobbly]

Because garage goblins like the taste of lubricants and take your disc bolts out at night to lick them. Unfortunately they're not very skilled with torque wrenches and tend to only put them back finger tight. Obvious I thought :shrug: :lol2:

[SMC690]

It's not rocket science, it's common sense.
If you can't see it then keep doing what you are doing.

Forgive me for offering free sensible advice any tech worth his salt would back up.
Anti-seize, incl copper paste and normal grease make the bolt easier to remove. Handy if you are lazy and dont care about doing it the correct way. If your wheel is slightly out of true or tyre is slightly out of balance or then vibrations MAY cause the bolt to come out unless the disc bolt is properly torqued when done up.
Do you use a torque wrench on important fastners like these?
If it was fastened in with a mid strength locking compound the chance of this freak occurance obviously would be zero. Locking compound works on almost most materials, alloy, steel, magnesium, cast etc. etc. blah d blah.

So, tell me. Why do disc bolts as spare parts from most motorcycle manufacturers come with locking compound on them already when I should be using something quite the opposite like anti sieze or copper paste or moly paste that makes them easier to remove?

[anttismo]

......So, tell me. Why do disc bolts as spare parts from most motorcycle manufacturers come with locking compound on them already when I should be using something quite the opposite like anti sieze or copper paste or moly paste that makes them easier to remove?

OK, I could, but I won't :)

But if you can extend your logic to tell me why some of the most critical engine bolts are installed explicitly with lube, I may reconsider :up:

[Harry525]

My original idea was assuming you would be removing the bolts regularly, thus checking their torque regularly.

I'd rather check them regularly than have to use a helicoil or similar, or buy a new hub. A black artline pen mark would be a really easy way to visually check them. Some nail polish or similar on the heads would also prevent them from vibrating out.

I use a torque wrench on EVERY bolt on my bike.

Interesting discussion, though. :popcorn:

[SMC690]

But if you can extend your logic to tell me why some of the most critical engine bolts are installed explicitly with lube, I may reconsider :up:

Extend your oh so logical eye across the thread again in it's entirety and show me where I said 'engine bolt'.
You might want to start reading the thread from the beginning again.
I never mentioned engine bolts at any stage.
Disc's and the bolts that hold them on is what we are talking about.

[77]

SMC625 and everyone else on here lets not let this become another drag strip episode. I posted the question because I wanted peoples opinions. SMC625 I do the same job as you and have also done for about 10 - 15 years and have asked in my time mechanics that I thought were very very competent and have had mixed answers about a lot of things that would seem common sense. The difference about my situation is that I do R&R these bolts all the time and at first used a tension wrench for the simple fact that it is aluminium and not steel and I have seen many many many stripped threads. As you say disc bolts do come with a locking compound but I would also stress that most bikes sold are not sold with two sets of wheels and therefore not designed for constant R&R.

Personally in my situation I use a smidge of anti seize but I was curious as to what other people think about this. Also wondered if someone uses another product.

Its all good.
We have to remember that we are all "constantly" learning, no matter what.

[SMC690]

http://vsmr.net/albums/bitsnbobs/DiscBolts.jpg

When it comes down too it we all do what we like, so keep doing what you like.

Ant, read the bottom line in the pic. I dont have time to email the factory and get them to change all the KTM owners & workshop manuals, I'll leave that up to you. :)

Edited later to fix pic.

[Harry525]

Well, can't argue with that!

[anttismo]

....Extend your oh so logical eye across the thread again in it's entirety and show me where I said 'engine bolt'.
You might want to start reading the thread from the beginning again.
I never mentioned engine bolts at any stage.
Disc's and the bolts that hold them on is what we are talking about.

Nowhere did you mention engines. I was just trying to get to the bottom of this comment re; oil on the bolts. "Arrrgh, STOP that's a good way to make them fall out"

Why? And please don't say it's common sense, because it doesn't seem to be shown in this thread. Adding oil enourmously increases the preload on the bolt at a given torque setting, and may make the bolt *less* likely to come loose.

I agree that I wouldn't really use oil on most threads, basically for fear of stripping them. And over-preload may lead to local yealiding of the bolt, thread, or load carrying faces. However, all else being equal there is no reason for oil to make bolts come lose if prelaoded by head torque :shrug: Preload by angular specification, or acurately by starin gauges or simiolar is whole different matter.

Just stirring it up for the sake of (possibly) interesting discussion :)

[Flash]

Just thought I'd add my .02. Just remember my experiance is in go kart racing here. I don't run lock tite on disks but I will (when removing and refitting the disc) do a couple of laps and re tighten the bolts. as they do heat up and cool down a lot. I don't use locktite on the disc bolts and never have in 10 years of racing and I haven't had 1 disc come loose. I am a fan of oiling bolts when assembling things in general, but as a rule I generally don't oil disc bolts for fear of oil getting"thrown" on to either of the braking surfaces when it heats up. Remember the disc on a go kart spins a fair bit quicker its also smaller so the heat/cooldown may be different to a bike

[kroosn]

i always use locktite antiseize, pretty much its just a lubricant like oil so i dont see why oil would be that bad, but if you check the bolts each service surely it should be fine

Kroosn

[77]

http://vsmr.net/albums/bitsnbobs/DiscBolts.thumb.jpg

When it comes down too it we all do what we like, so keep doing what you like.

Ant, read the bottom line in the pic. I dont have time to email the factory and get them to change all the KTM owners & workshop manuals, I'll leave that up to you. :)

(Pic got resized in the post for some reason, readable copy in gallery)

Are you gettin pissed off about all this?

[Wobbly]

Not to hijack the discussion further, but is there a rule of thumb as to what to torque an oiled bolt to versus a given dry torque setting? So head bolts for example are usually given with an oiled torque setting, but a dry torque level would be correspondingly higher. So if I have a bolt that has a 25 ft lb nominal torque level when assembling dry, would this be, say, 75% of this if the bolt were oiled?

[SMC690]

Are you gettin pissed off about all this?

Nah, not much, lol. As mentioned this makes an interesting discussion just too see all the different ideas and methods people have, be they right or wrong when it comes to good mechanical practice.

Antissimo's "Wow. Now there's believeable testimony" with a laughing comment pissed me right off. Why wouldn't it? I take my job very seriously, I love it, and I pride myself on technical & mechanical ability and do my darndest to give customers the best service I can offer. So if you want to cut me down in flames and make me look like cockhead infront of the foum community when just trying to help then I'm going to do my best to give it back just as hard, turn the tables and prove the point.
I have a several GSXR workshop manuals here, A Kawasaki KR1/KR1S manual, NSR250, RGV250 & 500, Bulk Ducati manuals, Yamaha manuals, Aprilia manuals etc. Then there are the PDF's.
I bet everyone of them says use locking compound on disc bolts.

I'll keep using my method and others who have different beliefs can use theirs. Easy..... :) Everyone happy.

I use marine grease when replacing stock bolts with alloy bolts on my ENGINE side covers etc to stop them binding which is usually contibuted to corrosion due to moisture and alloys reaction with the cast material. Alloy can do that and excessive torque on the bolt when you try to remove it can easily snap the head off due to their low tensile strength when they are bound.

Back to the original initial post, I used to have trouble removing my front calliper too on my old tard too. I used to slide it back on the disc a bit and use the disc as a lever, Gently rock the calliper back and forward on the disc to push the pads back, that would give me enought clearance to get the calliper out on an angle, narrowly missing the rim. It's was harder getting it back on as the new pads are of course heaps thicker! You may need to remove the cap from your front brake master cylinder if the fluid reservior is full so you can push the pistons right back without the res. overflowing.

Flame away, I have my nomex suit on now. :)

[Wobbly]

KR1S manual - legend! Do you have the S supplement to the original KR1 manual? :-k

[77]

SMC625. Thanks for the response I do appreciate it as I appreciate most peoples opinions. People who generally respond to these kinds of posts are generally only trying to help. Don't take things too much to heart as often people are trying to be funny and it comes off rather insulting sometimes (by accident), I say this because I have often had this problem myself, (I suffer from extreme shit stirring sarcastic humour). You also have to realize that people from other professions have different opinions about how things should be done. Where I work for example all the mechanics I asked (the worthwhile/capable ones) said to definitely use a lube on the caliper spacer. People with a machining background have different opinoins on how things should be done because they are often the ones repairing these types of problems. Head rebuilders also have different opinions on how things should be done. The funny thing about it all is that we all think we are right, I am interested in peoples experiences and logic. You must also remember that factory manual are constantly being ammended and often dealerships do things different from the manual because from experience it works.

What is a Nomex suit??

[anttismo]

.......Antissimo's "Wow. Now there's believeable testimony" with a laughing comment pissed me right off. Why wouldn't it? I take my job very seriously, I love it, and I pride myself on technical & mechanical ability and do my darndest to give customers the best service I can offer. So if you want to cut me down in flames and make me look like cockhead infront of the foum community when just trying to help then I'm going to do my best to give it back just as hard, turn the tables and prove the point......

SMC, relax, it's the intonet. As we speak, some guy is being bum fucked in a turkish prison. In 100 years, the human race will be a smoking hole in the ground. In the mean time, life is far too much like a joke to take it seriously :lol :up:

On the "that's believable testimony..." comment, that wasn't personal at all. I just like comeents like that. Just sounds really funny and makes me laugh a lot...... which is really the point of the interporn in the grand scheme of things. "I worked with a tech for years so that makes me right..." just sounds kind of funny doesn't it. You should have added that you had 15 PhDs and I would have been convinced. It's like reading "letters to the editor" in the newspaper. Awesome :lol:

And don't worry about looking like a cockhead. Anyone who has met me in person can understand how much like a cockhead a human being can look :lol:

P.S. Thread locker on caliper bolts is good. Lots workshop manual will tell you it's good. Although I haven't seen the ones that tell you lube on the bolts are good way to make them fall out :lol:

[77]

P.S. Thread locker on caliper bolts is good. Lots workshop manual will tell you it's good. Although I haven't seen the ones that tell you lube on the bolts are good way to make them fall out

What are you saying about my caliper and its bolts?

You lookin to make something of it?

:lol: :lol:
8)
:D
:shock:

P.S. I like that the "intonet"

[SMC690]

....What is a Nomex suit??

Thanks for your comments.
It's pretty interesting how all this shit works and the different opinions from the different sides of the trade.
You mentioned lube on a caliper spacer, depending on the setup if it's a floating caliper I would definately use a grease or paste on the pin the caliper floats on.
If it's something like the relocation for a 4 piston non-floating brembo goldline style caliper to the forkleg I'd lock it on to the bracket and to the forkleg with mid strength locking compound.
I think I may have to re-affirm I was only jumping up and down about the thread locking the bolts that hold your discs on to your hubs or wheels.

Nomex is a FLAMEproof material they make racing suits out of for use in car and drag racing. ;)

KR1S manual - legend! Do you have the S supplement to the original KR1 manual? :-k

In a box in the garage somewhere I do. It may be a bit fuxored as I used to live in Fairfield and the floods there the year before last turned my garage into a swimming pool and some of the books were in boxes on the floor. :( It may have survived, I'll go check.
KR1 was my first road bike, I had to rebuild it 2 weeks after I bought it. I got shafted by the salesman who told me to f*ck off when I took it back and told him the motor was rooted after I got anothe dealer to check it out. I was young & dumb on bikes. I rebuilt it with KR-1S barrels, pistons and heads as the KR-1 heads and barrels were a joke.
Replacing the can's with open perf tube mufflers and opening up the airbox makes so much of a difference when I took it round the block after the mods I gave it a handfull and flipped it. I had just put the new fibreglass race fairings on the bike an hour earlier, they were replacing the stock fairings which had become a victim of both Mt Donnabuang and my inexperience. Doh.
I'll find a picture of it, it was the first bike I customised and it's phuking ugly, lol.

Peace, love and 150km's an hour 5th gear stand up wheelies. :D

[Wobbly]

Excellent - someone to finally swap KR1 blowup stories with :D

Here you go:

http://vsmr.net/albums/krblowup/KR_engine_after_sieze_crank.jpg

More in >> HERE (http://www.vsmr.net/modules.php?set_albumName=krblowup&op=modload&name=Gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php)

Mine has the stock KR1 barrels but ported by rod sharp, S ignitor, S forks and shock, S wheels and brakes, S exhaust with (old) TZ cans. Dynos 51rwhp on the same dyno that does a ported aprilia rs250 at 54. :)

[SMC690]

Neil, I learnt with the KR1 to always keep a finger on the clutch lever just incase. Kawasaki build ships so I don't trust them as much will small bore engineering, lol.




SMC, relax, it's the intonet.



Very relaxed dude, I'm almost falling off my chair. :)



You should have added that you had 15 PhDs and I would have been convinced. It's like reading "letters to the editor" in the newspaper. Awesome :lol:



You and I both know that 15 Doctorates means shit to real every day hands on experience. All fine in theory with your head buried in a book writing a paper but what about applying those principle in an every day environment and finding out what really works and what doesn't? . ;)



P.S. Thread locker on caliper bolts is good. Lots workshop manual will tell you it's good. Although I haven't seen the ones that tell you lube on the bolts are good way to make them fall out :lol:


Imagine how thick a workshop manual would be if it had pages on all the things what NOT to do.

[Flash]

Nuh your all fucking wrong you hammer the bolts in and then give em half a turn. they'll never come out then ;)

51rwhp jusus Neil you should put that fucker in a motard!!

[Wobbly]

That was on a relatively low reading dyno too :snigger: Of course the motor isnt all that big, and doesn't weigh a ton either....

[Harry525]

Not to hijack the discussion further, but is there a rule of thumb as to what to torque an oiled bolt to versus a given dry torque setting? So head bolts for example are usually given with an oiled torque setting, but a dry torque level would be correspondingly higher. So if I have a bolt that has a 25 ft lb nominal torque level when assembling dry, would this be, say, 75% of this if the bolt were oiled?

Yep, you're right. Most thread-specific lubes will have a friction factor to adjust your torque settings. It would be insignificant on small bolts but when you get into heavy industry applications (mining, oilfield) the differences can be quite large. I don't remember the figures being 0.75, more like 0.92

Nomex - you need it for this --> :rabbit:

[SMC690]

Just another blokes angle on lubed v's dry fastners and the difference in torquing tension, he also has a dry v's lube torque calc for interest sake:
http://www.rockcrawler.com/techreports/fasteners_torque/index.asp#

[Wobbly]

Interesting article - not sure where they get their torque specs or what they are based on but they seem pretty high. Their torque calculator gives a dry torque rating of about 100 ft lbs for a 1/2" (~12mm) grade 5 fastener...! :shock:

[Sibbo]

They might of confused bolts with rivits and only think the bolts are doing their job after they shear their heads off???

[anttismo]

Interesting article - not sure where they get their torque specs or what they are based on but they seem pretty high. Their torque calculator gives a dry torque rating of about 100 ft lbs for a 1/2" (~12mm) grade 5 fastener...! :shock:

See, now we are having interesting discussion :up:

I'm not a guru of how the neanderthals classify bolts, but the following chart reckons a grade five in a like a 8.8 (typical Hi tensile bolt - yield 640+ MPa) and a grade 8 is like 10.9. So a grade 5, 1/2" bolt would be pretty much like a falcon wheel stud. Should be OK to 100 ft-lbs :up:

http://www.boltdepot.com/fastener-information/Bolt-Grade-Chart.aspx

On the torque vs lubing thing. Any design text gives the basic relationships on torque vs friction coeff. Oil lube could be as much as 3 times less than dry, so torque with caution on lubed bolts, especially into ally :)